tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post4138211543484722642..comments2024-03-04T00:50:02.182-08:00Comments on KeithGiles.com: SILVER AND GOLDKeith Gileshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00328300571647154699noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-2225764059580505822010-08-07T14:46:49.134-07:002010-08-07T14:46:49.134-07:00Marc - I really don't think that the passage i...Marc - I really don't think that the passage is ONLY about miracles.<br /><br />In context, Jesus says, "Those who follow me will do the things that I have been doing."<br /><br />It starts there. Following Jesus means hearing his words and putting them into practice. (see John 14 and 15 for example).<br /><br />If we don't start at daily taking up our cross and dieing to ourselves, we're already off track.<br /><br />Secondly, yes Jesus says that (after we have been doing the things he has been doing) we will "do even greater things than these" but that, again, doesn't just mean exclusively miracles.<br /><br />I would caution you not to become too focused on miracles without first beginning with the simple basics of daily following the humble example of Jesus to become a servant (see Phil 2) and washing feet. <br /><br />"Now that you know these things you will be blessed if you do them.." Jesus says.<br /><br />I've seen too many christians get of track by wanting - even demanding - signs and wonders from Jesus without having any regard for the needs of other human beings who are suffering. <br /><br />For example, I can't stand sitting in a church service where the pastor calls for people to expect miracles and that they want to see Jesus raise the dead. But, none of those people is seriously willing for their wife to die, or their child to die. I ask you, if no one dies, how will anyone be raised from the dead? They don't really know what they're asking.<br /><br />I'm also sick of christians who claim to have the gift of healing but their gift only seems to work in a 30,000 seat arena. Why can't they just quietly visit a children's cancer ward on their own on a tuesday afternoon and pray for kids? That way only Jesus would get the glory and those kids would be healed and saved.<br /><br />The crowds who followed Jesus constantly demanded a sign. His disciples followed him because he had the words of life and they knew that they had no where else to go, even when they didn't understand what he was doing.Keith Gileshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00328300571647154699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-24198285197204403872010-08-05T11:35:55.359-07:002010-08-05T11:35:55.359-07:00Marc,
I think it is a bit extreme to say that, be...Marc,<br /><br />I think it is a bit extreme to say that, because we don't do miracles, we are not true Christians. I think the lack of "signs and wonders following" is more of a reflection on our immaturity in Christ, than not being in Christ at all. I believe that once the body begins to mature, and function in true faith, and encourage one another to develop the gifts given to us, we will then see more of these workings of the Spirit, including miracles.<br /><br />MarkMarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14871432677951973950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-74003001967596333052010-08-05T02:52:27.655-07:002010-08-05T02:52:27.655-07:00Thanks for the reply Keith, but I worry about rela...Thanks for the reply Keith, but I worry about relativising texts in the name of apologetics and defending the status quo. The natural meaning of Jesus words in this context is certainly "greater miracles" and not more small ones or over a wider area. Phillip was asking him to "Show us the Father" and Jesus speaks in the singular about "he" who will do greater things.<br /><br />Nevertheless, great or small, I can't shake the impression that Jesus initial followers were able to do miracles and we aren't and this shows that <b>we're radically off track as Christians</b>, probably not even on the same page as true disciples.<br /><br />In short, I think most western Christians, including myself, who do not have the power to work wonders, are not true Christians. This ties up with what Jesus said at the end of Luke 14: "any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple." The world can see that we're not following Jesus and we think, thanks to Luther, that our belief is all that counts.Marchttp://criticalBelief.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-84095109886313624642010-08-04T07:04:10.057-07:002010-08-04T07:04:10.057-07:00I was thinking along these lines the other day. I ...I was thinking along these lines the other day. I lost my job last year and by a miracle found another job a few months later, but half the salary I had before. Fortunately, God put it on our hearts to downsize a couple years ago so we can still meet our needs with the new job. And then some, because our giving seems to have increased with the new job. My new employer even matches what I give to World Vision. So .... interesting. But like you we're still working on the getting down and dirty part and not just writing checks.Dan Bensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14687464967788834090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-79846076458366237052010-08-03T18:41:15.152-07:002010-08-03T18:41:15.152-07:00Marc - I mentioned power and weakness only in the ...Marc - I mentioned power and weakness only in the sense of how Paul uses these terms in 2 Cor 12:9<br /><br />I'm not really thinking about miracles here, but I do think it's interesting that in James 2:5 it says, "....has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith..?"<br /><br />If faith is required for miracles, maybe this is why we only see great miracles in Third World Countries? America is the richest nation on the planet, so perhaps this is why we don't see as much miraculous power.<br /><br />As for the verse you reference about Jesus' promise that those who follow him will "do even greater things than me" I would suggest that there's more going on here than you're thinking of.<br /><br />The verse is John 14:12 and in it Jesus says:<br /><br />"I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father."<br /><br />What was Jesus doing? He was spending time with the outcast, he was opposing the religious leaders of the day who put yokes on the common people, he was preaching the good news of the Kingdom to the poor, etc.<br /><br />Jesus is saying, in the first part, that those who claim to follow Him will be doing what He was doing - modelling the Kingdom life and demonstrating the love of God to people.<br /><br />I agree, this would also include praying for the sick for them to be healed, but it's more than that.<br /><br />Secondly, when Jesus says we will do even greater things than this, he is saying that the increase of these activities will surpass what he was able to do on his own. <br /><br />Frankly, it does not mean that "real Christians" will do even greater miracles than Jesus did. If that were so then Paul and Peter and the other Apostles were disqualified off the bat because those guys didn't outdo Jesus in the miracle department. None of them ever walked on water again, and none of them multiplied a handful of fish to feed thousands, etc. So, obviously that wasn't the point of what Jesus was trying to communicate.<br /><br />This verse is meant to show us that the followers of Jesus will keep on doing the things he did, namely to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom and to demonstrate the same compassion to the poor that he did and serve others as he did.<br /><br />Miracles may happen, or they may not. I think our focus shouldn't be the miracles but the obedience to the commands of Jesus to put his words into practice.Keith Gileshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00328300571647154699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-8155863071067523862010-08-03T11:02:58.752-07:002010-08-03T11:02:58.752-07:00I have been wondering why it seems like Father has...I have been wondering why it seems like Father has been calling mostly "poor people" to reach out to the poor(er/est) people in our community. I've been told by some folks that it's "because you can relate" ... <br /><br />But I think what you wrote here may be even more to the point: because we have relatively little of our own to give (especially in material terms), we can often only give:<br />- ourselves (as friends, servants, carriers of God's love, sharers of Jesus' gospel) <br />- and of course our amazing God.<br /><br />And that "only" is, in the end, so much more than all the riches the world can offer.<br /><br />I guess that makes us "privileged poor!"Norma Hill - aka penandpapermamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02034679415355279691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-40220007926713229362010-08-03T09:13:29.570-07:002010-08-03T09:13:29.570-07:00"For most of my life as a Christian I was com..."For most of my life as a Christian I was comfortable writing the checks so that someone else could step out and touch the poor and serve the lost. Unfortunately, we are called to do more than write checks." I am thrilled by the truth in those words.Cammie Novarahttp://intelligentdesignfacts.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-85586341202999057982010-08-03T08:37:43.457-07:002010-08-03T08:37:43.457-07:00Keith, you mentioned power and weakness. Do you th...Keith, you mentioned power and weakness. Do you think the lack of real miraculous power in the Church today is a sign that it is a fraud? <br /><br />I ask because Paul says to the Corinthians that he came, not with talk but with power. I assume he meant a display of real spiritual healing because that's what they would have understood and not the "power" of a suffering apostle. <br /><br />Real power is something most churches today don't have and I think it calls their legitimacy into question - Jesus healed and walked on water and said we would do greater things but we can't.Marchttp://criticalBelief.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-22558776392769182722010-08-03T04:53:38.273-07:002010-08-03T04:53:38.273-07:00Great post!
I have always thought, being in the l...Great post!<br /><br />I have always thought, being in the lower income bracket myself (we still have far more than we need), that I could not serve the poor and needy, that the job of helping those in need fell on those who had wealth, but this post really clarifies that we are all called to serve those in need, because ultimately, even if we don't have silver and gold, we do have the power of Christ to change lives and as you make clear in this post God works through the weak and foolish things in the world because his strength and wisdom are seen in them. Thanks for sharing this!<br /><br />-DanDan Allenhttp://someekklesia.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com