tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post3872861463386109050..comments2024-03-04T00:50:02.182-08:00Comments on KeithGiles.com: WHAT IS ORGANIC CHURCH? [Neil Cole & Frank Viola Interviewed]Keith Gileshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00328300571647154699noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-66352768287826139962010-09-15T18:17:52.895-07:002010-09-15T18:17:52.895-07:00Neil's blog is http://cole-slaw.blogspot.com/ ...Neil's blog is http://cole-slaw.blogspot.com/ you forgot the hyphen. :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03737754547136008611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-40540828151490243972010-09-11T12:46:01.137-07:002010-09-11T12:46:01.137-07:00Thank you Keith for putting this together.Thank you Keith for putting this together.D. L. Websterhttp://gzmproductions.com/dlwebsternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-17972547009754819172010-09-09T20:55:15.330-07:002010-09-09T20:55:15.330-07:00Neil and Frank are no longer able to respond direc...Neil and Frank are no longer able to respond directly to comments on the interview here at this blog.<br /><br />If you'd like to correspond with either Neil or Frank any further, please visit them at their respective blog sites:<br /><br />Neil's: http://coleslaw.blogspot.com/<br /><br />Frank's:<br />http://www.frankviola.wordpress.com<br /><br />Thanks again to both Frank and Neil for taking the time to participate in this interview together.<br /><br />-kgKeith Gileshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00328300571647154699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-37085263965846803762010-09-09T13:28:32.508-07:002010-09-09T13:28:32.508-07:00Frank,
I just have one more word for you brother....Frank,<br /><br />I just have one more word for you brother. I want you to know that I have started praying for your fruitfulness and success in ministry and life. Bless you bro. <br /><br />Pressing on,<br /><br />NeilNeil Colehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08289317696474966831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-18698972192903692012010-09-08T21:58:00.084-07:002010-09-08T21:58:00.084-07:00[FRANK'S RESPONSE TO NEIL - PART 2]
Incidenta...[FRANK'S RESPONSE TO NEIL - PART 2]<br /><br />Incidentally, the term “Jesus Manifesto” has been in use for many years, mostly among theologians and NT scholars. The term is used as short-hand to describe Luke 4:18ff. and the “Sermon on the Mount.” Len and I use it in a more popular way. Our manifesto doesn’t purport to be a complete or final statement. It’s rather designed to make a particular statement for this particular hour and (God willing) produce “manifests” of Jesus Christ. We talk about what that means in the book.<br /><br />I’m game for a book swap … send me whatever you would like me to read and I’ll send you “From Eternity” and “Jesus Manifesto.” I’ll also send you “The Untold Story of the New Testament Church” which is a narrative reading of the New Testament. This reading has put the entire New Testament in a totally different context for me. If nothing else, it will better explain why I arrive at the conclusions I do. It just might resolve some of the perplexity in our different approaches to the NT.<br /><br />Let’s exchange snail addresses via email.<br /><br />I really appreciate you and your labor in the Lord, Neil. And I love your heart.<br /><br />Your brother,<br />FrankKeith Gileshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00328300571647154699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-37567335702080358102010-09-08T21:56:56.844-07:002010-09-08T21:56:56.844-07:00[Frank's response to Neil]
Neil. Appreciate t...[Frank's response to Neil]<br /><br />Neil. Appreciate the kind words, bro. I’m glad we were able to have this dialogue also. (Many thanks to Keith also.)<br />And I do think it would be good for us to have a “Marburg” someday ;-)<br />My suggestion of a Summit would not be with the expectation that everyone would leave on the same exact page. Disney will be hosting the Ice Capades in hell before that happens ;-) Instead, the object would be to get to know one another better, hear one another’s hearts, be educated on what each is doing and why, and more, to hear reactions/responses to various views, input on various issues, etc. At best, we’d all be adjusted and further educated. At worse, barring any assaults ;-), we would better understand one another. In-person conversation is a different universe than electronic communication.<br />I come back to the principle of Peter, Paul, and John. Different emphases, but complementation rather than competition. I see our interview reflecting some of this. It’s in the subtext.<br /><br />One thing I do in “Finding Organic Church” is attempt to contextualize the ministries of Paul and the other apostles for our time. For me, if we can understand that Paul was motivated by and labored under what he called “the heavenly vision” … and what that vision meant and was for him (I believe it’s unveiled in Ephesians), it changes the perspective of his ministry dramatically. It has for me anyway.<br />But more: the greatest teacher in my own life has been the ekklesia herself. I don’t consider myself a theologian, scholar, or philosopher, but an observing biologist who has learned by watching the ekklesia over the last 22 years in various contexts and cultures as she has expressed her Lord organically. I’ve learned more by watching and observing her in her organic expression — gathering and operating by spiritual instinct — rather than ritual or tradition. For me anyway, this has shed enormous light on the New Testament record. I’ve also learned by serendipitous discoveries and many mistakes.<br /><br />I’m still in school and expect to be until my last breath. There are no experts in this business. That I’m sure of. I am confident you agree.<br />By my lights, Ephesus was Paul’s master-stroke. I believe he duplicated the ministry of Jesus Christ in Galilee there. He trained 8 men (workers) while Jesus trained 12. And the churches in Asia Minor that we read about in Rev. 2-3 were the product of his apprentices going out to raise up the ekklesia. There are hints that Epaphras learned from Paul in Ephesus; we don’t know how long that happened as Paul was in Ephesus for 3 years. And the context and the training was intense (5 hours a day in Tyrannus Hall for a few years). But the fact that Epaphras needed further assistance is evidenced by the Colossian crises and his trip to Rome to consult with Paul. That’s a short riff, but perhaps someday we can give Epaphras some back-and-forth whirls around the turn-table.<br /><br />I didn’t know L. Richard used the phrase “organic church.” I wonder if he read Sparks ;-) Mary McDonough also talked about the organic spiritual life back in the 20s. I’ve been using “organic” and “organically” to refer to the church since the 90s. The terms are contained in my erstwhile books, Rethinking the Wineskin & Who is Your Covering? (now combined, revised, and retitled Reimagining Church). I think it’s good that it’s being used in our time, and hopefully, our different nuances of it will help the Lord’s people in the way of clarity.<br /><br />[TO BE CONTINUED]Keith Gileshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00328300571647154699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-42644123557327193152010-09-08T18:50:02.866-07:002010-09-08T18:50:02.866-07:00[Neil's comments continued]
It appears that y...[Neil's comments continued]<br /><br />It appears that you were able to read my responses before you turned in yours and I didn’t have that opportunity, so I will respond here just a bit to some of what you said.<br /> <br />I also have struggled with counting churches and have brought much consternation to those that want me to count them over the years. My feeling is that it is impossible to count churches in a multiplication movement after a few years, and a waste of resources if you tried. I have actually used Einstein’s quote as well to reflect my feelings on this. We’re of a similar mind here.<br /> <br />Like you I do not consider myself simply a house church leader. We have churches in a variety of contexts and even sizes. Like you, however, I do find that meeting in a home is one of the best places for a family.<br /> <br />I have no doubt that you have used the term “organic” in reference to church for many years as I have heard you mention several times. I have as well, and I do not want to take anything from T. Austin Sparks, but others may have used the term even earlier. I have never read Sparks, but was influenced by Larry Richards who was using the term a long time ago as well. I did read your book How to Start a House Church a few years back (I think it was published in 2003) and “organic church” is not mentioned in it. So in the interest of balance, realize that we are all on a journey and our thinking evolves with maturation. Neither of us owns the word, and I, for my part, am glad you use it. I did refer to the church as more organic in my first published work, Raising Leaders for the Harvest (1995), but I assure you that my thinking has evolved a great deal since then. For the most part, I think we are both using the term well and simply have differing emphasis, which actually helps with balance. I have probably neglected the community interaction with Christ some in my writings in favor of more apostolic mission, so I am glad for your additions to the conversation.<br /> <br />I do personally think Pagan Christianity is Frank at his very best, but I will read From Eternity to Here as soon as I get a chance. I will also try to get The Jesus Manifesto as well. Actually, to be honest, the title sorta scared me off on that one. I know you and Leonard enough to know better, but it comes across to me as somewhat presumptuous. I don’t think I could write a book with that title, but not having read it I shouldn’t judge the book by its cover…or title. People I know and respect have told me it is a good book, so I will get it soon. Perhaps we should have another book swap like we did a few years ago.<br /> <br />It was an honor to be associated with you in this interview and I do hope we get more time together in the future. I, for one, will try to discourage any of the people that I work with from expressing any sort of “I am of Neil” attitude.<br /> <br />Pressing on,<br /> <br />NeilKeith Gileshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00328300571647154699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-37375689603670091182010-09-08T18:47:36.697-07:002010-09-08T18:47:36.697-07:00At Neil's request I am re-posting this comment...At Neil's request I am re-posting this comment for him:<br /><br />Frank,<br /> <br />I am honored to do this with you. I wouldn’t mind getting a way for a few days sequestered with missional church leaders. I do not think we need to all agree though, and doubt that we would (I’m sure you do as well). In fact, I think our variations found even in this interview are fun. I do not think any one of us can possibly contain all of the beautiful complexities of Christ, so our varying emphasis is actually a way to bring out more of Christ. If we were bound to one thought leader or one camp we would certainly miss a lot of whom Christ is.<br /> <br />In our interview, I am fascinated about one thing. We both come at our understanding of church from an organic perspective. We both have saturated ourselves with Acts and the NT epistles. We both have written books following Acts/NT representation of church models (See Church 3.0 99. 99-113) and also of Paul’s journeys (my new book to be released March 2011 called Journeys to Significance). Nevertheless, we both come out with very different perspectives on the subject. I am so intrigued by this, in fact, I think it is sorta cool.<br /> <br />I see Peter as the apostle to the Jews. I see Paul as launching out to establish churches where the gospel has not gone. Yes, he starts with the Jews (and God fearers) by conviction, but he always went to the Gentiles and is known as the apostle to the Gentiles. In contrast, it took Peter quite a long time to launch out of Jerusalem. I am frankly, honored to be considered in the same breath as either of them.<br /> <br />I like your observation of God’s calling from our vocation. I was a lifeguard for LA County Beaches when I was called to follow Jesus and it is a true characteristic of my spiritual call as well. You were a teacher and I can certainly see that you still are. I observe in my new book that Paul was frequently on spiritual journeys and was in fact on a missionary journey of sorts when he encountered Christ and this remained consistent in his life as well.<br /> <br />You observe Paul starting just a few churches and not movements, yet I see incredible movements born. His tenure in Ephesus alone is remarkable. He was there for only 3 years and every person in Asia Minor heard the word of the Lord–and Paul never left Ephesus. So I guess some “toddlers” were sent out, as you mention, Epaphras was one. He met Christ in Ephesus, was trained and then sent out to start at least three churches in the Lyca valley all within those three years, so I think he was sent at a relatively young spiritual age.<br /> <br />I say all this because our differing views are something I find so interesting, not contentious in any way. Perhaps it demonstrates how we carry our own lenses into the Scriptures and find what we are looking for. Ouch. This can also be a bit disconcerting as well.<br /> <br />This is the greatest observation I have from the interview we did. Thanks for your part.<br /> <br />--to be continuedKeith Gileshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00328300571647154699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-14897641757723695802010-09-08T12:26:25.480-07:002010-09-08T12:26:25.480-07:00Thanks Neil,
Good stuff! I am intrigued by your su...Thanks Neil,<br />Good stuff! I am intrigued by your suggestion that Paul was learning as he went and that his model may have changed as well...Have to give that one a think! (Not because I disagree but just I had never encountered that idea before!)<br /><br />I think that in terms of preparation, a body can easily know ahead of time what they will be discussing, can prepare by studying, researching, etc. and as so far as the 'teaching' time goes, can discuss what God has shown them (since we are not just much into learning together/looking things up together here in the West, but do so more on our own.) as well as have one or two or three indivs esp. charged with bringing a teaching on the topic that everyone can question or discuss (1 Cor.) and even that these indivs may have teaching 'gifts' others don't. At the same time, others have the same opportunity and the group is not closed...As indivs share and bring up topics from their own study, it is fitting that others would begin to recognize that they have teaching gifts and begin to 'hear' them when they share or recognize that gifting. Of course this is all methodology and there are many ways to get to the same place...A functioning body listening to the H.S. and equipping others to do the work. It is function not titles or 'authority.'<br /><br />Maybe our models of 'authority' and 'leadership' are too corrupted to ever contain the truth of God and will forever be misunderstood and abused by both hearers and 'teachers' in a way that the term 'carwasher' would not.<br /><br />Clearly there is greater responsibility on whoever is speaking or teaching, both by God and by the body...They can be corrected, disagreed with, or end up admitting that someone else has understood the passage better and is humbled by the admission.<br /><br />We need servants. But not all servants are going to be best used as teachers or explainers of God's word. Some will be much better at other things and that is honorable and important and we need to take special care to reconize them Paul says. Others will be given to teaching/speaking but we shouldn't put them on a special pedestal Paul says and reminds them to be humble. There is a false humilty too though, where those given gifts are reluctant to use them and so the church can also suffer. All should use whatever gift God has given for the benefit of all. And God will make it clear whether the use is self-serving or to the benefit of all. Elders can also help with this without being obtrusive or controlling.<br /><br />Thanks for the response, I knew you weren't anti-leadership, which is why I brought up the point. The article made it sound as if lack of leadership or any human direction was maybe better and if we had human direction it was only because we weren't listening closely enough to God and I knew you didn't mean that.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08567165083045624025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-42264558511784952072010-09-08T09:58:03.193-07:002010-09-08T09:58:03.193-07:00Vitally,
We need to rethink what it means to be a...Vitally,<br /><br />We need to rethink what it means to be a teacher. Our current understanding of someone who stands up and gives a lecture is far more Western/Greek than Eastern/Hebraic. <br /><br />That doesn't make it wrong, but probably leaves us with some noticeable insufficiency.<br /><br />I have tried to define teaching as "facilitating the learning of others." The question is not, "Who knows the most?" or "Who is able to keep an audience's attention the best?" but who has shown others how to learn and pass that on to others?<br /><br />That changes the scorecard quite a bit when it comes to teachers.Neil Colehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08289317696474966831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-3383368425666785042010-09-08T09:52:23.593-07:002010-09-08T09:52:23.593-07:00Vitally,
I do not appoint elders in our churches....Vitally,<br /><br />I do not appoint elders in our churches. In my new book that comes out in March 2011 (Journeys to Significance) I demonstrate that Paul realized the insufficiency of how they were developing leaders and churches on the first journey and that he made adjustments. On his second journey he started dropping off more experienced leaders at each stop to develop the young church and her leaders (Luke in Philippi, Timothy in Thessalonica and Silas in Berea), but soon realized that there was a major capacity issue with that strategy. <br /><br />In Corinth Jesus showed him another way: to find workers in the harvest itself (no capacity problem there) and from that point on Paul stayed longer in the places he journeyed and raised up leaders from within. <br /><br />The influence multiplied much further. To the Ephesian elders he states clearly that it was the Holy Spirit who appointed them as elders (Acts 20:28) and improvement over his first journey practice. Paul was leaving for good by the HS would always remain. <br /><br />So I have tried to learn the way Paul did and develop leaders organically from the soil. It means remaining longer but the fruit is more lasting and spreads farther. Luke says that every person in Asia (Jew and Gentile) heard the Word of the Lord...wow!Neil Colehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08289317696474966831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-16523578558182736912010-09-08T09:37:43.185-07:002010-09-08T09:37:43.185-07:00Mark,
I do believe in leadership. I've writte...Mark,<br /><br />I do believe in leadership. I've written four books on it and am half way through on a fifth. What I do not believe in is hierarchical structures to manage, control or "watch over" the church. I believe that this is the norm for the world, "but it is not to be so among you." I believe we are top function in spiritual and relational authority, not positional (btw these types of authority are far more powerful and influential than positional anyway, which is why Jesus walked in them rather than positional).<br /><br />I see an overseer as someone who is more mature than most in the family and functions as a spiritual parent role. The overseer is not above looking down, but among looking out over the flock--for any incoming missiles and for direction on a new path. I question this need to have human managers that take charge in the church. This ultimately causes the spiritual family to sit in their place and do as they are told, but not thrive as Christ's agents in this world.<br /><br />A leader is first a servant, then, well,...still a servant. We do not need more leaders who serve but more servants that lead. Leadership in the NT is to go first, and stand before on the journey...not stand above and make decisions for everyone else, as if he or she is the only one who can hear correctly from God.<br /><br />Maturity does not make one more spiritual. The baby Christian is just as redeemed, just as spirit filled and just as ordained as the senior citizen in God's kingdom. It is not sinful nor is it less spiritual to be less mature. What is important is not where you are on the journey, but where you are going. If you are moving forward and making progress in maturity (into the image of Christ) than you are doing well. If you are not moving forward, then there is a problem. It is not a sin to be immature. It is a sin to stay that way. Anyone who is progressive in their maturation, can (and should be) influencing others. My newest book (released 3/11) addresses this process. In fact, if the church is full of immaturity, it is the few who are mature that are not doing what they need to do (equipping), not the fault of the immature (overall, this is not 100% true).<br /><br />Yes, we need more mature spiritual fathers and mothers...absolutely. They, however, are not more valuable than less mature, any more than grandparents are more valuable than children in our families. I do believe that the Western church is full of immature Christians because growth has been stunted by our church structures and leadership views. As a result we have many immature Christians and very few mature saints that know how to empower others and the consequence is that such a mature person is rare and valuable.<br /><br />I believe some of the reasons that we do not see more spontaneous expansion of the church are... <br /><br />1. We do not allow for much of anything to be spontaneous, so God is not allowed to break into our meetings and tell us anything.<br /><br />2. Our leaders are young men and women spiritually, who are out on the frontlines doing battle, but we do not have many fathers and mothers who have pulled off the frontlines and are now investing in the future. A spiritual father/mother is more interested in their child's success than their own. <br /><br />3. We are not planting the seed of the kingdom which carries the true DNA of the kingdom, so we are not reaping the fruit.<br /><br />Hope that helps some.<br /><br />Pressing on,<br /><br />NeilNeil Colehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08289317696474966831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-40721975291051768342010-09-08T09:04:46.429-07:002010-09-08T09:04:46.429-07:00Vitaly:
1. Yes, in some groups. But it's real...Vitaly:<br /><br />1. Yes, in some groups. But it's really a public acknowledgement of a function that already is operating rather than an appointment into a sociological slot or position. Paul didn't acknowledge elders in every church he planted. And he never did it immediately. It had to do with the situation and the maturity of the group. I realize the above departs from traditional thinking, but I've addressed the issue and the common objections to it in detail in "Reimagining Church."<br /><br />2. Their practical ministry is oversight and shepherding - which is mostly a behind the scenes role in the community rather than something that dominates the church gatherings where all participate and share the Lord. Some elders have the gift of public teaching; others do not. Elsewhere I've described elders as those who pray with their eyes open and the kidneys of the body. (If interested, see the free ebook "Straight Talk to Pastors" which is a survey from Matthew to Revelation of the role of first-century elders: http://www.ptmin.org/books)<br /><br />3. Yes, I've seen it happen. Often. As with all the gifts. It's too much to describe in a comment like this, but I do give practical examples in "Reimagining Church."<br /><br />You may also wish to check out the lengthy discussion on some related issues in the comments section over at: http://bit.ly/cvKkrL<br /><br />Your questions are excellent, by the way. I hope this helps some.frankaviolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17848648086152568614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-40648365082347456512010-09-08T02:54:16.073-07:002010-09-08T02:54:16.073-07:00Two questions to both Neil and Frank about leaders...Two questions to both Neil and Frank about leadership: <br /><br />1. Neil used Acts 14:21-25 to show that Paul appointed elders to churches some time later then the time they were planted. Have you appointed elders to the churches you helped to start? What is their practical ministry in organic churches? Please give examples. <br /><br />2. Neil mentioned that “a teacher is good at teaching”. When does he practice this gift in an organic church that you described? How does a person, who is gifted as a shepherd (pastor) use his gift practically in an organic church?<br /><br />Frank mentioned that “eventually shepherds will emerge who will care for those with needs, overseers will emerge who provide oversight, teachers will emerge who will bless the church with the ability to unveil Christ from the Scriptures”. Did you see this happen in your stile of organic churches? How does it look like practically?Vitaly Kellerhttp://vakrus@gmail.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-80355187265373976372010-09-07T16:25:19.729-07:002010-09-07T16:25:19.729-07:00Thanks for the great interview and putting this to...Thanks for the great interview and putting this together Keith. Thanks Frank and Neil for sharing your hearts and for all that you do. Neil Cole's book "Organic Church" was huge for me in my spiritual development and Frank's books and blogs have been wonderful. I also second the motion for putting together a summit where these two can have a roundtable discussion. That would be wonderful!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-51366220022594919752010-09-07T14:14:01.639-07:002010-09-07T14:14:01.639-07:00Thank you SO much for getting both these great aut...Thank you SO much for getting both these great authors and visionaries together to dialogue for the church's edification! I have been a fan of both of them for many years and wondered why this hasn't happened before. And yes, Frank let's see this event and please market the heck out of the DVD too!<br /><br />Now, a few thoughts...my first reaction is that I think both men overemphasized "No leadership. No facilitation." and maybe a lack of preparation. This is probably a response to current day leadership but I feel it is a mistake. We need to pray for godly, servant leaders and facilitators and Scripture shows that such are a gift to the gathering. Oversight IS Biblical and we need to pray that all the gifts are manifested in the church.<br /><br />Neil also said that "none are more spiritual, more connected or more responsible for the advancement of the kingdom, but all are agents directly connected to the King Himself." Well, I'd rather say as some of my evangelical Anglican friends have said, that the more holy/prayerful you are, the more important you are. There are fathers and mothers in Christ as there should be, teaching, loving, guiding the younger. Yes, as Wimber used to say, "God put all His best gifts down on the lower shelves so all could play." but coaches and older, wiser brothers and sisters are irreplaceable!<br /><br />Both clearly state that it's all about Jesus, not being a 'house church' or anti-anything. No church should start up in reaction to something we don't like or to push a pet doctrine...That is an insult to the 'owner' of the church. He deserves to be the focal point.<br /><br />I think for many of us, we maintain a deistic, absent view of God and Jesus who is too busy to concern himself and let's others run things in absentia, while checking in once in a while for accountability sake. This is wrong.<br /><br />We have also lost a view of Christ not only risen, but REIGNING in heaven over everything on heaven and on earth. That ALL AUTHORITY is now His. Either that's true or it's not. Either we have grasped it or not.(Matt 24, Eph. 1, Heb. 1,...) But it made all the difference to the N.T. Church struggling against Caesar and He is as ready to impart/bless/answer today! Where is our boldness and confidence?!<br /><br />Lastly, I think Neil makes some SUPER POWERFUL observations about spontaneous growth. Why is it so few house churches and emerging churches and organic churches are seeing radical growth? Is it because they are largely made up of older, less exuberent believers? I think so. Roland Allen had it right in 'The Spontaneous Expansion of the Church' and 'Missionary Methods: St. Paul's or Ours?' as Neil has here. We need to reach people and then set them free to disciple others, knowing right now that they are going to make a mess of it, going to say the wrong things, going to hurt feelings or be too casual about sin or too radical...So be it. Let's stay close enough that we can hopefully speak into their future and help these new movements. God knows that the current crop of house and organic churches won't get it done without some new move of God that goes far beyond our abilities to imagine or control.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08567165083045624025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-88294403816878233772010-09-07T10:31:10.447-07:002010-09-07T10:31:10.447-07:00I have read most of the books these two men have w...I have read most of the books these two men have written and have gleaned from both of them. They both serve the same great God. I enjoyed hearing from both of them on this subject. Thanks for posting their responses to your questions.Jan Packhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00144548072127784580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-31812823082985127082010-09-07T10:04:33.506-07:002010-09-07T10:04:33.506-07:00Helpful piece Keith...Thanks for your labor!
One ...Helpful piece Keith...Thanks for your labor!<br /><br />One bit I would toss out there that wasn't really stated: An essential element of all organic/living things is that they when they are healthy they grow and reproduce! The organic nature of the church must include and keep this essential element of living & healthy church(es). <br />In the same way that our Triune God charged Adam and Eve to be fruitful, multiply and fill the earth...our Triune God charged us to make disciples of the entire globe! Multiplication is at the center of our Lord's work in nature and in the Church!Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12963323276707694206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-70585185990546530302010-09-06T21:35:15.858-07:002010-09-06T21:35:15.858-07:00PLEASE NOTE: Your comments will not appear immedia...PLEASE NOTE: Your comments will not appear immediately. I will moderate them and post them manually. It might take a while, but if they are not objectionable they WILL post. <br /><br />Please do not re-post the same comments over and over. Just be patient, please.<br /><br />Thanks!<br />kgKeith Gileshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00328300571647154699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-39067658204937490322010-09-06T21:03:37.931-07:002010-09-06T21:03:37.931-07:00Excellent questions and responses from both Neil a...Excellent questions and responses from both Neil and Frank. I have been perplexed by the differences in these men and their approaches. I have discovered many incompatible differences and find that often, for me at least, there is an acceptable middle.<br /><br />What I find absent in Frank's responses is the intentional and active Making of Disciples. Granted God has an eternal purpose, but that eternal purpose is realized through sub-purposes. <br /><br />Take for example Psalm 104:<br /><br />He (God) causes the grass to grow for the cattle,<br /><br /><br /><br />And vegetation for the labor of man,<br /><br /><br /><br />So that he (man) may bring forth food from the earth.<br /><br />Doesn't get much more Organic than that. the sub-purposes of God are used to attain His eternal purpose. We don't work to contribute to that attainment, He does. <br /><br />We do the work that God gives us to do and let Him worry about working all things together for good.<br /><br />Further I am somewhat uncomfortable with Frank's "God is Father because He has a Son." I think God is Father because part of his Organic nature is FATHER. We could use this reasoning for the Son as well if we say that Jesus is the Son because He has a Father. Likewise the Spirit, I agree, is the Spirit of Christ, but remains by nature a distinct and eternally existing person of the trinity. I might be nit picking here, but this is the way I think.<br /><br />On a minor note, how do we know that Paul was constructing tents when he was apprehended? <br /><br />I am a relatively new comer to the Organic realm of ekklesia, but in actuality have been doing Organic church for some time as a missionary on a foreign mission field. it was not prompted by any reading or instruction, but by a natural sensing of a shift of motion in my heart and in observing the needs in the hearts of others.<br /><br />That said, I respect both of these men but am probably more in line with Neil's position. I find Frank wonderfully annoying, and that usually means (for me at least) that there is much to be learned.<br /><br />There are many like myself who are watching this "Organic Clash of the Titans" to see how this new/old orthodoxy transmits to orthopraxy. I too would like to see these two come together for a meeting of the minds and wouldn't mind being locked in that same room for those three days.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00127896491196953382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-70557282603555817292010-09-06T17:05:21.518-07:002010-09-06T17:05:21.518-07:00Thank you brother Keith for bringing these 2 preci...Thank you brother Keith for bringing these 2 precious brothers together. I pray this might be the catalyst to bring them and a few others together for a "summit" as Frank mentioned. Thank you Frank & Neil for your love and devotion for our Lord Jesus.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926207.post-59660017491132741032010-09-06T14:42:06.293-07:002010-09-06T14:42:06.293-07:00Keith, excellent set of questions that helps descr...Keith, excellent set of questions that helps describe the different flavors, at least to my mind the only two out their, of organic church. Everything else seems to be a form of institutional Christianity. <br /><br />It seems Neil's organic church is more systematic and discipleship focused while Frank's organic church is more wholly organic and corporate focused. Very helpful for those a little confused about the differences. <br /><br />A lot was shared and I appreciate you bringing this out to the blogosphere! For those interested in organic church life seeing the different perspectives can be helpful. Bottomline: the church is the body of Christ where everyone functions solely under the headship of Jesus Christ together. Great stuff brother!John S Wilson IIIhttp://johnswilson3.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.com